No.9928
> spellingThis Ernst seriously never understood the reasoning behind most spelling rules. Is there any point in having spelling rules? Why not simply adapt the international phonetic alphabet and just write down as spoken?
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Phonetic_AlphabetThere might be some cases where spelling can be useful. For example for artistic purposes or while coding. But usually it should be a lot better to just write as spoken, no? Afaik korean is the closest to having a scripture that is a phonetic representation of the actual spoken language.
Spelling in a language without any phonetic definition/aspect to the language might also be useful.
I am seriously asking:
What is the point of spelling from the point of view from a linguist?
e.g. the attached little mp4:
I was genuinely wondering "why doesn't the doctor understand him?" until the doctor said the word and I went like "What? You are supposed to pronounce it like that? How the fuck is a foreigner supposed to know
that?"
And, yes, I pronounce sooo many english words wrong, because I always ever engaged with them in written form.
No.9929
>>9928>What is the point of spelling from the point of view from a linguist?That would be difficult to accomplish.
What would you do with homophone? Does German language has such?
No.9930 KONTRA
Also the same word could sound differently in different sentences. That's true a lot of times for french.
How would you even teach that?
>6 — sis
>6 ans — siz:an
No.9931
>>9930I'm certain in proclaiming:
every kid learns to phonetically understand that before learning to write it down.
> How would you even teach that?It already has been taught once you teach someone to write.
It's a different story if you just or first teach how to write and afterwards how to speak.
For numerical values I, personally, would kind of agree to using numerical symbols instead of phonetic ones. Numerical values are an edge case. If I remember correctly we are supposed to "write the numerical value out up to ... twelve(?)" and everything afterwards/bigger as numerical symbols, if you wanna write "correct" german.
>>9929> homophoneIn spoken language you know because of the context.
Why would written language be different? But, yes, that is a valid problem with language, not with spelling. (Or did I make a mistake here?)
No.9934 KONTRA
>>9931>I'm certain in proclaiming:Welp that's silly. Any other dialect and shit is fucked up.
No.9938
>>9934yeah, I thought about that problem as well.
My solution would pretty much be how it is currently handled:
you have a "standard" for the whole language
/country.
this standard gets taught in addition to the local dialect, see switzerland as an example. I, for example, also speak in a heavy dialect, if I speak "normal". I can still speak pretty good high-german, if I need or want to. Additionally, in german it is quite common for some to just write "as spoken", if they want to give something a local dialectical twist. It usually is still understandable even for german speakers who are not too familiar with that dialect.
Writing "normal" high-german is a little straining, because I do
not speak like that. Having the symbols to write at least be logically bound to how to speak the language, would help lessen this strain a little. But I think english and french is a lot worse in terms of "this is how it is spelled" and "this is how it is actually pronounced". Dutch seems more similar to german than to english in terms of this aspect, but, like always with that language, somewhere in between. I don't know how problematic other languages are.
> and shit is fucked upYes, that is correct.
But would it be more fucked up as our current rules regarding spelling?
No.9939
>>9938>But would it be more fucked up as our current rules regarding spelling?Imagine almost every Arab could learn German grammar and spelling in several months because it's so easy. Why would anyone hire you then?
No.9940
>>9939> Imagine almost every Arab could learn German grammar and spelling in several months because it's so easy. Why would anyone hire you then?I don't quite see the problem here.
> imagine grammar and spelling was logically consistent> imagine there is less work to be done> imagine you could use your time to work on other problems, since this one has been pretty much solved....
> Why would anyone hire you then?To learn slang, idioms, fillers and habits. It's very rare in pretty much any language, that native speakers are speaking "correct". Either this "correct" is very local, because the standard is based on that local area, or your "correct" stands out among the local "wrong".
No.10019
>>9940Every arab speak perfect German anyway. Albany farmers from villages talk funny, though. Their congenital retardation prevents them from learning decent German.
No.10514 KONTRA
>>10487in the example, it sounds like disziplinlos is connotated with being disrespectful while undiszipliniert connotes laziness or not being well organized in my book
No.13249
>>13248There's also
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiao%27erjingTibetans muslims in Baltistan also write Tibetan in Arabic.
No.13250 KONTRA
0.jpg (26.96 KB, 994x340)
Semi-related:
No.13251
>>13249Almost all Muslim peoples used Arabic script at some point. What surprised me is "why Belarusian wtf". I've never heard of Lipka Tatars and also I was confused because I've never heard of Tatars in Russia writing Russian language in Arabic script. They definitely used it for their own language though. But it's not unique if you think of it - Yiddish is a dialect of German written with Hebrew script, except it's not specially adapted, so we can't say that there is a designated "German Hebrew Alphabet".
>>13250Wow
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Arabic_mathematical_notation No.13991
I heard that Celtic languages are studied in school in Ireland and Wales. Seems like pissing against the wind to me because it's more convenient and natural for people there to speak English. Probably with very strong and unliberal government intervention it's possible to resurrect Celtic languages and then maintain it naturally because they're very different from English instead of being its dialect (like Scots), which would inevitably merge back into English. That would be interesting, another alive Indo-European branch.
They sound nice. For a while I thought that Tolkien used them as inspiration for Elvish language (turns out, it's Finnish).
Pairwise comparisons Irish & Gaelic & Welsh:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u86rM01KPCUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZF2gKBcgE4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q02dYEEHZ24What do you think?
No.17920
>>17913>>17914>>17917>>17918Most G*rmans neither can hear nor speak the difference between a voiced and voiceless ending of a wordt.
No.19528
>>19510Interested in doglords, dipwaffles and poopclowns, for various reasons.
No.19531
>>19528Only a trumpnozzle would be interested in that
No.20754
So that's why tranners use they/them as pronouns:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_theyAnd in French they combine "he" and "she" into one word to create neuter pronoun.
In Russian there is a neuter singular pronoun "ono" but tranners still use plural "oni", probably because they adopted it from English without thinking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language - examples in different languages
No.21023
>>20756>In Polish "they" is also gendered (oni/one)So how do they refer to a mixed-sex group or a person who's sex they're not sure of?
No.21024
>>21023Probably the same as french
No.21025
>>21024Yes, same as French, mixed = multiple males.
No.21736
>>21711Unsurprisingly,
Sclave seems not to be attested before 1387, that is, long after the Norman conquest, the transition from Old to Middle English, and the end of the crusades:
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED38870I think the "Slav" ethnonym with its variations is what Greeks called Slavic-speaking peoples, starting with some Southern Slavic speaking ones near the Greeks in the Balkans. Later, Romans adopted this name.
The early Angles were neighbours of (Western) Slavic speakers, with the Kieler Förde as an approximate boundary between them, and they would have used other names for each other than the Southern Europeans did. But these continental, pre-migration Angles did not write down what they called their neighbours, and IIRC it's unclear to what extent they are ancestral to the later Angles in England. Later West Germanic languages called Slavic speakers
Wends or variations thereof.
As for the post-migration Angles whose ancestors had moved to Great Britain, I expected them to lack a word for Slavs, as they lived far away from each other. But Wiktionary has Old English
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wineda_land "Slavia" and
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wined "Slav". Nice!
Yet for some reason,
Engliscan Ƿikipǣdia uses the term
Slavisc rather than, I don't know, something like
Winedisc:
https://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavisca_sprǣca?uselang=ru No.21737 KONTRA
>>21736>from each otherthat is, the Angles in Great Britain lived far away from Slavic speakers
No.21742
>>21736I think that "Slav" is an appropriate word for Anglish. Even if it was borrowed through Normans, it's still a Slavic autonym, there is nothing specifically Romance about it. Such words are almost always borrowed, with few exceptions such as "nemets". Term "Wined" was borrowed from other tribes as well, but it sounds incomprehensible and far from modern English.
BTW declaring entire of month of Anglish was too much, I'll torture you with posts in it, but only occasionally.
No.21757
>>21742>I'll torture youI've actually been enjoying your Anglish Awareness Afteryule efforts so far.
How do you even do that? Have you got a replacement dictionary? Is there a movement of Anglish enthusiasts? Ah, I just found
https://anglish.org/wiki/Anglish No.21760
>>21757> How do you even do that?I write post in English, then go word-by-word, check etymology with google if not sure and replace borrowed words.
If I can't come up with replacement (unborrowing) myself, then there is a dictionary, yes:
https://anglish.fandom.com/wiki/English_Wordbook/NThere are two translators, which as well do replacement word-by-word with different outdated versions of the mentioned dictionary:
https://bark-fa.github.io/Anglish-Translator/https://lingojam.com/Anglish2-0There is also an AI translator (which isn't always accurate and requires proofreading):
https://anythingtranslate.com/translators/anglish-translator/If it doesn't help either, I look up how does this word work in other Germanic languages and try to adapt it to English phonetics, or look up how was it formed in the original Romance language and try to form a neologism based on the same principle.
So I'm torturing myself, first of all. Especially given my amateur knowledge of English and its high level of creolisation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English_creole_hypothesis
> Is there a movement of Anglish enthusiasts?Yes, there are discord servers, subreddits, telegram channels, wikis and so on. I haven't yet dived into it and not sure if I will do.
No.21770
>>21765Wot do u min bai fonetics? Ðera lengwɪðiz wið fonetic orfoɡrafi saʧ az serbien end belarusien, end Ai don't faind ðet rili konvinient end preti bikoz u nid tu nou fo ʃu hau its pronaunced tu nou hau its riten.
What do you mean by phonetics? There are languages with phonetics orthography such as Serbian and Belarusian and I don't find that really convenient and pretty because you need to know for sure how it's pronounced to know how it's written. And Australians, Brits and Americans pronounce words somewhat differently, so you'll have to have 3 different English spellings.
In other Cyrillic Slavic languages such as Russian spelling is close to prononciation as well because Cyrillic was a Greek script, specifically adapted for slavspeeches. Since then there were almost no phonetic shifts happened. And 1917's orthography reform made it more convenient and up-to-time. I guess in Portuguese/Spanish/Italian spelling is also simple.
As for Chinese, dialects are too different from each other, their written forms are only mutually comprehensible because of hieroglyphics.
No.21832
>>21765We should all just use the latin alphabet.
No.22129
The German language has to be adapted.
Take the words constant and instant, in German you'd say "konstant" and "instantan", which is very inconsequential.
So I'd suggest we adapt "konstant" into "konstantan" to streamline this whole sequence of adjectives.
Sounds more intellectual and will allow for at least 10 years of "Uhm, ackshually, it's "konstantan" now." as well.
No.22131
>>22129What is instantly and constantly? What is Konstante and Moment? What is sofort or stande pede?
No.22132
>>22131See, it's "momentan" as well, hence it should be "konstantan".
Haven't thought about nouns too much, was more of a clearing thought in between paid thoughts at wörk.
No.22133
>>22132Apples and oranges, Ernst. Apples and oranges.
No.22203
>>21846It's too precise system. What you consider a single sound "h" could be a dozen of slightly different sounds, which you can't distinguish without a special training.
You'll have a huge keyboard and spelling will be harder, not easier.
No.22816
>>22615What language are you learning?
I have a 250 days streak in French, and according to different tests on the internet my current level is B1. It helps that French grammar is relatively simple and that frogs stole all their words from English :D
No.22839 KONTRA
>>22816Isn’t there also a hell lot of words we
stole from Russian? Does it help you in any way?
No.22840
>>22839That's true, there are plenty of them, even though not that much as in English (where majority of vocabulary are Latin/French words). There are even borrowings which aren't present in English like "billet". Or "chauffeur" though it's old-stylish and was mostly replaced by "voditel". Or "magazine" as store, though it's originally Arabic.
Until 1917 every well-educated Russian spoke French. People who also spoke English, like Nabokov's family were uncommon.
No.22859
> Salvador Dalí was born in 1897 in the town of Figueres, in the Empordà region close to the French border in Catalonia, Spain.
How did you pronounce the date in your mind? In English or in your native language?
No.22860
>>22859Usually in German, but sometimes I try to enunciate, and then I pronounce them like the narrator in a BBC documentary.
No.22868 KONTRA
>>22859I don’t pronounce dates in my mind. They are directly linked to abstract concepts
No.22883
>>22868>I don’t pronounce dates in my mind.what the fuck
No.22891
>>22859I pronounced the year in English. When reading Swedish I still read numbers and dates in English, but I am trying to better myself.
No.22893
>>22892Americans are retarded, in other news: Ernsts are assburgers.